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Debating Atheism Version 1.0

Eric Hovind March 29th, 2012

Twitter Debates

I got into a twitter conversation with an atheist named Alex a while back and found the conversation worth a read. Alex continues to try to push the conversation into the area of science and knowledge, yet had already admitted that he may be wrong about everything he thinks he knows.  If you engage in a conversation with an atheist, and he or she admit doubt about everything they think they know, the debate is over because you have demonstrated that the atheist has no knowledge. It is puzzling to discover why atheists would want to debate knowledge after they have admitted that it is possible they don’t have any.

I have learned that this is the Biblical method we should use to engage atheists. There is no reason to argue over the Grand Canyon, the Age of the Earth, the Flood, or Dinosaurs.  This is all a debate for people that realize we can have knowledge and truth.  The atheist is not at the place where he can admit knowledge and truth because to admit we have absolute knowledge would require belief in a God. You see, without someone who knows everything, we would be forced to say that we could be wrong about what we know. If we could be wrong about what we know, then we would have to say that we can not be absolutely sure about anything. Because the atheist denies the one who knows everything, they are forced to say that they can’t know anything.

If you would like to learn the basics of proving your faith, make sure to get the new “Think” CD.

Let the 140 character per statement debate begin.

Eric said:  The truths of God are not a matter of belief or unbelief, they are a matter of acceptance or rejection. 10/3/11 11:33 AM

Alex said: that’s fallacious  10/3/11 11:35 AM

Eric said:  but you could be wrong. 10/3/11 11:35 AM

Alex said:  i could be, but so could you…and I’m not  10/3/11 11:37 AM

Eric said:  you just contradicted yourself in one tweet. Lol. 10/3/11 11:38 AM

Alex said:  thing is though, i’m NOT wrong…there are no revelations from non-existent gods  10/3/11 11:39 AM

Eric said:  but you just said you could be wrong.  10/3/11 11:40 AM

Eric said:  people that I meet who reject the God of the Bible do it for emotional reasons, not intellectual ones. 10/3/11 8:09 PM

Eric said:  You failed to answer simple questions fearful of “where they might lead”. You condemn circular reasoning then use it. 10/11/11 11:37 PM

Alex said:  primacy of existence  10/12/11 1:31 AM

Alex said: as for ‘answering simple questions’ – they were very clearly leading questions, and only an idiot allows himself to be led 10/12/11 7:35 AM

Eric said:  You do fear being lead to the truth don’t you! 10/12/11 10:51 AM

Eric said:  There is a difference between “leading” questions and “loaded” questions. Of course the questions were leading, every question is 10/12/11 10:52 AM

Alex said: eric eric eric, you have no truth to lead anyone to! So, appear on the show! 10/12/11 11:06 AM

Eric said:  You claim that there is no truth, so why get together to talk about what you can’t know? 10/12/11 11:25 AM

Alex said: we can know about creationism being untrue, come and debate that, none of this TAG nonsense 10/12/11 12:28 PM

Eric said:  When you say “we can not be sure of anything”, then what is the point of talking? We have to address this fundamental issue first. 10/12/11 12:30 PM

Alex said: Primacy of Existence – reality is real. OK, now that’s sorted, let’s discuss how utterly wrong YECreationism is! Time? 10/12/11 1:14 PM

Eric said:  are you using that same old circular argument again that your senses validate your senses? 10/12/11 1:16 PM

Alex said: no, we only HAVE senses because reality is real. Come on, quit avoiding discussing the interesting stuff! 10/12/11 1:17 PM

Alex said: For example, even AiG admit that the Bristle Cone Pine growth ring record causes a major problem for a 6000 yr old Earth. 10/12/11 1:18 PM

Alex said: or are you a YEC who claims that your god made the universe with the appearance of age, lying to his creation about reality? 10/12/11 1:20 PM

Alex said: I’ve seen you claim the Grand Canyon was cut by the flood, that’s nonsense – how do you defend such appalling lies? 10/12/11 1:21 PM

Alex said: did the flood dry up for a bit? Become tropical, then artic, then wet, then dry and tropical again? Grand Canyon layers! 10/12/11 1:22 PM

Alex said: how did the Chinese write texts before the Universe was formed? 10/12/11 1:22 PM

Alex said: how come the Egyptians didn’t notice the global flood that supposedly killed them all? 10/12/11 1:23 PM

Alex said: see? We’ve got a LOT to talk about! Let’s get you on the show and you can explain your views! 10/12/11 1:23 PM

Eric said:  but if we can’t know anything, why talk about it? You can’t answer simple questions yet want to have a discussion??? 10/12/11 1:35 PM

Eric said:  I will make the claim that without God you can’t know anything. Now, Alex, do you know anything to be absolute? 10/12/11 1:37 PM

Eric said:  “only an idiot allows himself to be led” A wise man wants to be “led” to the truth. 10/12/11 10:58 PM

Lewishamdreamer said: Eric A wise man doesn’t deal in absolutes like ‘the truth’ and takes responsibility for thinking for himself. 10/13/11 12:13 AM

Eric said:  @Lewishamdreamer Wow, can’t believe you just said that. Maybe you should read what you just wrote. 10/13/11 8:54 AM

Alex said: when are you going to appear on the show to discuss creationism? 10/13/11 6:42 AM

Eric said:  soon as you admit that your world view is circular. 10/13/11 8:53 AM

Lewishamdreamer said: Eric It’s hugely disturbing that you’d disagree with a word I wrote. 10/13/11 8:58 AM

Alex said: primacy of existence, eric. Reality is real. No circularity. Are you afraid to discuss creationism? 10/13/11 8:59 AM

Eric said:  @Lewishamdreamer is that absolutely true that I disagree. Seriously, no one will take you seriously if you keep saying things like that. 10/13/11 9:04 AM

Eric said:  Not afraid to talk. You are not being honest and you know it. Reality is real is based on senses validating senses. #circularity 10/13/11 9:03 AM

Alex said: cross referencing other senses (sight, sound, touch), corroborated by exp. of others and success of interaction w/reality. 10/13/11 9:15 AM

Alex said: i’m being totally honest. Reality is real, and if it isn’t it doesn’t matter, bc we all share this ‘illusion’ 10/13/11 9:16 AM

Eric said:  You already admitted that your worldview is a viciously circular argument. I think the debate is over! 10/13/11 9:17 AM

Alex said: talking of honesty, YOU say Grand Can. is the result of a flood, yet you know this isn’t true. 10/13/11 9:17 AM

Eric said:  Alex admitted that his worldview is viciously circular. Will you admit the same thing? 10/13/11 9:20 AM

Alex said: no, i didnt. Lies trip easily from your lips, don t they, Eric? 10/13/11 9:21 AM

Eric said:  Want me to play the clip for you? 10/13/11 9:22 AM

Alex said: going to play it in the context of the whole show? 10/13/11 9:25 AM

Alex said: why are you ignoring challenges to your creationism? 10/13/11 9:27 AM

Eric said:  the whole show is there for people to listen to, I would just play the part where you say, “Yes, it is viciously circular.” 10/13/11 9:29 AM

Alex said: good luck with that. So, why wont you discuss creationism? 10/13/11 9:30 AM

Eric said:  What would be the point of proving God to someone who says that they would not worship him? 10/13/11 9:31 AM

Alex said: hilarious! You actually are afraid to discuss it aren t you?? 10/13/11 9:32 AM

Eric said:  I talk about it every day. why would I be afraid to discuss it? 10/13/11 9:33 AM

Alex said: then why won’t you discuss it? Afraid we can show your view to be utterly wrong? 10/13/11 9:38 AM

Alex said: the truth is you CAN’T prove your god exists, because if you could, i’d believe 10/13/11 9:40 AM

Alex said: and answer me this – do YOU think reality is real? 10/13/11 9:45 AM

Eric said:  You do believe in God and suppress that truth. That is the only way you could know anything. Your own knowledge reveals this. 10/13/11 10:00 AM

Eric said:  Yes, I KNOW that reality is real. Would you like to borrow my certainty so that we can have a discussion? 10/13/11 10:01 AM

Alex said: you are borrowing from MY certainty! Thief! Apply occam’s razor, Eric 10/13/11 10:05 AM

Alex said: WRONG! I exist because existence is real, no gods required. Eric, i do not believe in any gods, they are not real 10/13/11 10:07 AM

Alex said: so we agree that reality is real. Now let’s see WHY. I use evidence from my senses to interpret the reality around me. 10/13/11 10:08 AM

Eric said:  you said you don’t have certainty of anything. Now you claim I am borrowing your certainty? Come on man. 10/13/11 10:09 AM

Alex said: YOU use evidence from your senses to read a book that tells you you can be sure reality is real. 10/13/11 10:09 AM

Alex said: you are adding an entirely pointless layer. Occam’s razor dictates that i am more likely to be right 10/13/11 10:10 AM

Eric said:  How do you know your senses are valid? 10/13/11 10:10 AM

Alex said: no, i said hypothetically we might not have certainty, but in r eality we do. Read back 10/13/11 10:11 AM

Alex said: because i successfully use them every single day 10/13/11 10:12 AM

Eric said:  in the debate you said that you could be wrong about everything. 10/13/11 10:12 AM

Alex said: *could* is the important word. 10/13/11 10:13 AM

Eric said:  “could” means you don’t have ” certainty”. Now, back to my point. Would you like to borrow MY certainty to have a discussion? 10/13/11 10:13 AM

Alex said: YOU borrow from reality to push your unneeded WV, why? 10/13/11 10:14 AM

Alex said: why would i borrow something you’ve added to that which you stole from me? 10/13/11 10:15 AM

Eric said:  You “could” be wrong about it being Reality. I have certainty. Every time you assume it is “certain” you are using my worldview. 10/13/11 10:15 AM

Eric said:  “could” you be wrong about that? “could” you be wrong about everything you know? 10/13/11 10:15 AM

Eric said:  I don’t “borrow from reality”. My worldview can ACCOUNT for reality. 10/13/11 10:16 AM

Alex said: so does mine, and with one step less than yours.10/13/11 10:24 AM

Eric said:  I didn’t steal “certainty” from you. Remember, you could be wrong! That does not allow for “certainty”. 10/13/11 10:24 AM

Eric said:  If you can’t be “certain” then your worldview can’t ACCOUNT for reality, it can only ASSUME it. 10/13/11 10:26 AM

Alex said: even if i’m a head in a jar that head is still within reality, no matter what i sense. Primacy of Existence always wins 10/13/11 10:27 AM

Alex said: i don’t have to ‘account’ for anything, reality is real. 10/13/11 10:27 AM

Alex said: why do you add a superfluous layer? How do you ‘account’ for that? 10/13/11 10:29 AM

Eric said:  And the circularity continues. Please stop and think about this. If you “could be wrong” then you don’t “know” reality is real. 10/13/11 10:29 AM

Eric said:  If you “could be wrong” then you don’t “know” anything. Back to what I already said, without God, you can’t know anything. 10/13/11 10:31 AM

Alex said: eric, i *could* be a bird, but i’m not. stop stealing from reality!! 10/13/11 10:32 AM

Eric said:  I wish you could see the simplicity of this. If you could be wrong about everything, then you can’t know anything for certain. 10/13/11 10:34 AM

Alex said: you assume reality exists because you’ve trusted a book you’ve read in that reality. YOU borrow from ME 10/13/11 10:34 AM

Eric said:  could you be wrong about that? 10/13/11 10:35 AM

Alex said: no, the primacy of existence dictates that i’m not 10/13/11 10:36 AM

Eric said:  could you be wrong about the primacy of existence? 10/13/11 10:37 AM

Eric said:  This is where we hit the bottom line. In your worldview you could be wrong, in my worldview I can have absolutes and certainty. 10/13/11 10:38 AM

Alex said: oh dear, you don’t get ‘reality’ at all! 10/13/11 10:43 AM

Eric said:  could you be wrong about what I “don’t get”. 10/13/11 10:45 AM

Alex said: you HAVE to accept my WV before you can even begin with yours. The contrary isn’t true 10/13/11 11:02 AM

Eric said:  Your worldview says that we could be wrong about everything. Accepting that would be foolish. 10/13/11 11:16 AM

Alex said: no it doesn’t, furthermore it provides us with the ONLY methods of knowing anything. Game over, Eric 10/13/11 11:23 AM

Eric said:  There you go again claiming to KNOW something while at the same time admitting that you could be wrong. #failedlogic 10/13/11 11:24 AM

Eric said:  I know this doesn’t make sense yet. I will say it louder. IF YOU COULD BE WRONG, THEN YOU DON’T KNOW! (sweetly said of course) 10/13/11 11:26 AM

Alex said: and i’m saying reality is real, and that i am not wrong to think that. 10/13/11 12:35 PM

Eric said:  but you have admitted that you could be wrong about everything. Now you are certain that reality is real? #inconsistent 10/13/11 12:41 PM

Alex said: reality is necessary for thought to be possible, so i can be certain reality exists. As for the rest, enjoy your word games. 10/13/11 12:43 PM

Alex said: and i *could* be wrong abt my perceptions, but that wouldn’t alter reality one bit. Dont you understand that? 10/13/11 12:45 PM

Eric said:  if you could be wrong about EVERYTHING, you could be wrong about what reality is. 10/13/11 1:33 PM

Alex said: so? That wouldn’t make reality suddenly vanish. Existence exists, and that accounts for everything else. You’ve got nothing 10/13/11 1:57 PM

Alex said: so, when are you going to come up with a *convincing* argument, Eric? 10/13/11 2:03 PM

Alex said: given that you claim your god to be unknowable, isn’t it possible you could find out that he’s entirely evil, or a trickster? 10/13/11 2:44 PM

Eric said:  Don’t get it do you. I know reality is real. You are the one that can’t know it with your worldview. That’s why you borrow mine. 10/13/11 2:56 PM

Eric said:  ? I don’t claim that God is unknowable. I said that “without God you can’t know anything.” You have demonstrated that very well. 10/13/11 2:58 PM

Alex said: No, I know reality is real BECAUSE IT IS, you then have to borrow from that to read your book, which then tells you the same! 10/13/11 3:06 PM

Alex said: you add a whole unnecessary layer, which accounts for nothing, to try and shoehorn your god into the equation 10/13/11 3:07 PM

Alex said: I’ve told you that we KNOW reality is real, because it is a necessary cause of consciousness. 10/13/11 3:08 PM

Alex said: Is god knowable? 10/13/11 3:08 PM

Alex said: btw, do you find that belittling others is an effective way to win souls for Christ? 10/13/11 3:11 PM

Eric said:  How did I belittle others? 10/13/11 4:01 PM

Eric said:  You claim that you could be wrong about everything, then you make a bunch of knowledge claims, and I don’t understand logic????? 10/13/11 4:05 PM

Alex said: What, exactly, do you think the ‘atheist worldview’ is? 10/13/11 4:05 PM

Alex said: by claiming they know nothing 10/13/11 4:06 PM

Eric said:  I didn’t say you don’t know anything. You are the one who said you could be wrong about everything. 10/13/11 4:09 PM

Alex said: “without God you can’t know anything.” You have demonstrated that very well.” – that was you btw 10/13/11 4:10 PM

Alex said: so, what is the ‘atheist worldview’? 10/13/11 4:11 PM

Eric said:  Alex, You live your life as though you know things. That is consistent with my worldview. Yours says you may be wrong. 10/13/11 4:11 PM

Alex said: no, it’s consistent with MY assertion that reality is real. Existence ALWAYS trumps conscience. 10/13/11 4:12 PM

Alex said: you had to accept that reality was real before you first read the Bible, so you borrow from MY POV 10/13/11 4:13 PM

Eric said:  YOU said that you could be wrong about everything. Now you are trying to make knowledge claims. #logicfail 10/13/11 4:15 PM

Alex said: how is ‘#logicfail’ NOT belittling someone? 10/13/11 4:15 PM

Alex said: whether I am right or wrong about things is irrelevant, reality will still continue to be real! 10/13/11 4:16 PM

Alex said: you are making a fundamentally fallacious appeal to the Primacy of Conscience 10/13/11 4:17 PM

Eric said:  could you be wrong about that? 10/13/11 4:17 PM

Alex said: that reality is real? 10/13/11 4:17 PM

Eric said:  sure, about that or ANYTHING? 10/13/11 4:18 PM

Alex said: what makes you think that’s a good question, Eric? 10/13/11 4:19 PM

Alex said: No wonder you have such a problem separating fantasy from fact in your dino and flood videos! 10/13/11 4:20 PM

Eric said:  because if you could be wrong about everything you can’t know anything! Not difficult to understand that. 10/13/11 4:20 PM

Eric said:  why would you not want to answer that question? 10/13/11 4:21 PM

Alex said: Reality would exist regardless, as it is not dependent upon my conscience 10/13/11 4:21 PM

Alex said: I just did 10/13/11 4:21 PM

Eric said:  Is it possible that you could be wrong about that? 10/13/11 4:22 PM

Alex said: eric, you’re acting like a child who replies ‘I know you are, but what am I?’ to every criticism. 10/13/11 4:24 PM

Alex said: did you use your faith in reality being real when you first heard about the Bible? Yes or no? 10/13/11 4:24 PM

Eric said:  No, I am holding you to your worldview which claims you could be wrong about everything you know. Your worldview fails. 10/13/11 4:25 PM

Alex said: but it doesn’t Eric, as proven by the fact I can use a computer, or drive a car, or eat a meal, or catch a ball. It SUCCEEDS 10/13/11 4:29 PM

Alex said: and it succeeds EVERY SINGLE MOMENT OF EVERY SINGLE DAY. So, answer my previous question 10/13/11 4:29 PM

Alex said: I’ll ask again – did you use your faith in reality being real when you first heard about the Bible? Yes or no? 10/13/11 4:30 PM

Eric said:  Of course you know things. That is the point. but your worldview says that you could be wrong about everything. You’re inconsistent. 10/13/11 4:31 PM

Alex said: Answer the question, Eric 10/13/11 4:32 PM

Alex said: but repeated experimentation, interacting with this reality every second of every day proves that I’m not 10/13/11 4:34 PM

Eric said:  are you admitting that your worldview fails? 10/13/11 4:34 PM

Alex said: answer the question – did you use your faith in reality being real when you first heard about the Bible? Yes or no? 10/13/11 4:34 PM

Alex said: and you’ve also ignored a previous question – what do YOU think the atheist worldview is? 10/13/11 4:35 PM

Eric said:  Atheist worldview – there is no God, we can’t know anything, there are no absolutes. Is that an ok summary? 10/13/11 4:36 PM

Alex said: no, it isn’t. 10/13/11 4:37 PM

Alex said: we CAN know things by accepting the Primacy of Existence and that reality is real. Everything follows from there 10/13/11 4:37 PM

Alex said: so, answer the other question – did you accept reality as real before you first heard of the idea of god? 10/13/11 4:38 PM

Eric said:  Hard to talk to someone who says they could be wrong about everything then keeps making knowledge claims. #worldviewfail 10/13/11 4:38 PM

Alex said: I’m asking you a straight ‘Y/N’ question – why won’t you answer it? 10/13/11 4:39 PM

Eric said:  it does no good to answer when the person who is asking says they could be wrong about EVERYTHING. #worldviewfail 10/13/11 4:40 PM

Alex said: Yes or No, Eric 10/13/11 4:40 PM

Eric said:  I recall asking you lots of Y/N questions that you would not answer. It is right there on your website. 10/13/11 4:40 PM

Alex said: so? Why does that prevent you answering that question? 10/13/11 4:41 PM

Eric said:  I have a 5:00 appt. Continue tomorrow? 10/13/11 4:41 PM

Alex said: AHAHAHAHAHAHAH! Brilliant! Saved by the bell! See if you can come with an answer by tomorrow 10/13/11 4:41 PM

Eric said:  You claim that you don’t know anything. Where do we start a conversation? 10/13/11 4:43 PM

Alex said: I asked you a clear question, you’ve failed to answer it 10/13/11 4:43 PM

Eric said:  See if you can figure out that if you could be wrong about everything, you can’t know anything. 10/13/11 4:43 PM

Eric said:  could you be wrong about that? 10/13/11 4:44 PM

Alex said: And I DIDN’T claim we don’t know anything, you seem to have problems reading 10/13/11 4:44 PM

Eric said:  could you be wrong about everything? 10/13/11 4:44 PM

Alex said: Eric, if you say ‘could you be wrong about that?’ instead of answering the question I’m going to block you 10/13/11 4:44 PM

Alex said: tut tut tut. You’re actually incapable of honest discourse, aren’t you? 10/13/11 4:45 PM

Eric said:  Can’t handle that question can you? 10/13/11 4:45 PM

Alex said: I’ve answered it! I’ve told you I AM sure of things! I am sure that reality is real. There you go! ANSWERED 10/13/11 4:45 PM

Alex said: NOW ANSWER MY QUESIONT 10/13/11 4:45 PM

Alex said: did you trust reality was real before you first heard of god or read the Bible? 10/13/11 4:46 PM

Alex said: YES or NO 10/13/11 4:46 PM

Eric said:  I have to ask though, could you be wrong about reality being real? 10/13/11 4:46 PM

Alex said: NO, I AM NOT 10/13/11 4:46 PM

Eric said:  think about it, more tomorrow, have to leave now. 10/13/11 4:47 PM

Alex said: oh Eric, you’re so wrong it’s not even funny. Sadly 140 char not enough. Will blog about it 10/14/11 11:19 AM
Conclusion